Comments on Fighting Monsters with Rubber Swords: Because "separate but equal" worked out so well th...

You know, I refer to Schuyler as "mute", which is ...

2007-11-25T16:29:00.000-06:00

You know, I refer to Schuyler as "mute", which is an acceptable (if not overly PC) term for the condition of speechlessness. But I don't refer to her as "a mute", which is considered a pretty derogatory term, like "retard" or "gimp". As has been pointed out ad nauseum elsewhere, I've learned a great deal about my own past insensitivity since Schuyler was born, and while I have little use for squishy, feel-good terminology, I do like to stop short of actual derogatory language, particularly when describing someone else's child instead of my own.

Is that hypocritical? Perhaps. But if it is, it's hypocritical in the same way that it's okay for African-Americans to drop the N-word or for homosexuals to self-identify as "queer", but not for someone who has never met Schuyler and who is clearly and perhaps pathologically afraid of people with disabilities to call my kid a mute.

All of which is my liberal, selfish, hypocritical way of saying that you've had your say and then some, and now I believe I'm done with you. You've got your own blog. Rant away.

Neurotypical is as scientific as "Differently Able...

2007-11-25T13:11:00.000-06:00

Neurotypical is as scientific as "Differently Abled". Is is a BS term designed to eliminate the word "normal" so that parents like you don't get your knickers in a twist.

I see no problem with learning to deal with a mute in a classroom. If she doesn't hold the other kids back, then it is GREAT that she can be there. My example was not a boogeyman, once liberals start talking about mainstreaming, they don't know where to end. How does a liberal decide who to exclude?

But special ed is typically for kids with learning disabilities, or at least was. That is usually retardation, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) and the like.

Where I taught, it was FAS coming out my ears. And mainstreaming made the education system a joke. Throw in severe with mild cases, and everyone gets ripped off. A child with an IQ of 70 and 1st grade reading skills doesn't belong in a high school class-PERIOD. Just as a kid who attended less than 3 weeks of his 7th grade should not be promoted to the 8th, and this isn't fantasy, it is real, I saw it. I also saw a kids get frustrated and act out because of the crap and boredom that they had to deal with.

But your very definition is bogus. All these "ifs...

2007-11-25T09:22:00.000-06:00

But your very definition is bogus. All these "ifs" that you hold up as gospel simply aren't true, beyond whatever anecdotal evidence you think you have. Schuyler and her classmates (and thousands of other mainstreamed special needs kids) participate in a regular classroom, doing the same work as other kids. Schuyler's homework is no different from anyone else's, and when she answers questions in class, the only difference is the manner in which she answers. They are there because they have disabilities that include speech impairments, being confined to wheelchairs, blindness, deafness, any other number of issues.

You see "special needs" and you extrapolate that as "incapable of doing anything but slouching in a wheelchair drooling on himself". That's beyond offensive; it's also wildly inaccurate. Who is even talking about profoundly retarded children being mainstreamed? You've set up a boogeyman to rail against, and it's not even relevant.

Incidentally (and as a self-described "teacher", you should know this), neurotypical isn't a "feel good" term. It describes a specific state of being in which neurological development is unimpaired. It's a scientific term, not a "liberal new-speak" one. Having a typically formed and functioning brain has nothing to do with being "normal".

Why are you so frightened by these kids?

Rob,

If your daughter is one of 20 kids in ...

2007-11-25T08:55:00.000-06:00

Rob,

If your daughter is one of 20 kids in a class, and she is taking up so much of the teacher's time and energy that the others cannot "be all that they can be", then yes, by definition they are suffering. Learning to have empathy for disabled kids is important, but so is learning how to build bridges, cure cancer, or read a tape measure.

I would say that most kids who are significantly behind their classmates (and are not expected to catch up) are better off with experts who can teach the kids at their pace. If this is a special ed class with a half dozen kids per teacher, great. But if a kid is incapable of doing anything but slouching in a wheelchair drooling on himself, then he shouldn't be in school at all. He needs one on one. Mom is probably getting subsidies for him anyway, she should probably get a couple of $ more to stay home with him and do her best.

If it is in a liberal, uncaring (Oops, I was redundant) school where they put 25 kids with learning disabilities in a class, than you're screwed, because that is obviously a daycare, not a classroom.

And BTW, why not just call the other kids normal? Calling them "neurotypical" is just liberal new-speak. Does it really make the pain go away when you refuse to call other kids "normal"?

::nods:: I wasn't disagreeing, actually, just expl...

2007-11-25T08:24:00.000-06:00

::nods:: I wasn't disagreeing, actually, just explaining my point poorly. I should have added, as thesis statement and conclusion: broken special-needs education (mainstream or pull-out/mixed) isn't a symptom of having broken students, it's a symptom of having broken schools. The fact that resources are often so scarce that parents start arguing about whose kids get shoved off the metaphorical lifeboat is - distressing, and missing the point. What we need is better boats. Hell, what we need is a flotilla.

(And for the record, I have seen small rural schools do the job of mixed-needs education beautifully, mostly when someone's around to throw money at the problem).

The thing is, the worst case scenarios are always ...

2007-11-25T08:06:00.000-06:00

The thing is, the worst case scenarios are always going to sound scary, but poorly run, underfunded or yokel schools that mainstream incorrectly don't represent the reality of mainstreaming special needs students. They represent the reality of crap schools. I can't imagine that any of the "scary boo" situations you present would be magically transformed into good educational programs if only there weren't special needs students being mainstreamed. Students being marginalized is hardly limited to special needs or mainstreaming programs.

Bad schools are bad schools, regardless of mainstreaming. As Schuyler's program illustrates, it can be done correctly, and when it is, it represents an educational model that benefits all students, not just special needs kids. The fact that some schools are doing it poorly is hardly a compelling case against mainstreaming. It's more of a compelling case against shitty schools.

First, as the parents on this list are well-aware ...

2007-11-25T07:50:00.000-06:00

First, as the parents on this list are well-aware of, there's a difference between mainstreaming a child in a way that gives her support and help, and the full range of services she needs to thrive, and mainstreaming a child in a way that dumps her on an overstrained teacher in an overcrowded classroom and leaves her there to rot. My uncle was a schoolteacher in the rural south for decades, and to this day nothing makes him as upset as talking about the kids with learning disabilities who sat in the back of the room and drew pictures for ten years of their lives because there was no one in the school system who could address something as basic as dyslexia. He had forty kids in a classroom, no training in special needs, and no help. When he hears the word "mainstreaming" now his reaction is kneejerk, to say the least.

Second, I grew up in a school that had what I will call a very wide range of socioeconomic backgrounds in its student body, and I feel compelled to say: it was not a wonderland of diversity in which everyone loved everyone else. The teachers worked very hard, but they were up against a hell of a lot. The worst year I had was when I was in a classroom where the teacher held the whole class to the pace of the kids who hadn't learned to read yet. She was a brilliant teacher for students with learning delays, and I really wish that the school system had been able to fill her class with the kind of students she excelled at teaching, because as was the nuerotypical and gifted kids who got bored engaged in some really heavy-duty bullying. I'm just saying, wanting to come home from school without any new bruises isn't a special need, but it's one I would have liked to see better-respected.

Third, (and this is what I meant to say before the lengthy digression about my childhood) schools for the deaf are (according the interpreter at my college) funded under Health and Human Services, not education, and it's a huge problem, because education does get periodic budget increases, while schools for the deaf are an obscure line item that everyone tends to forget about: even the original commenter, who is in favor of this approach, doesn't know that it's been done! In fact, I will bet you most people don't know that deaf boarding schools exist.

Like I said, this makes funding them problematic.

So I want to be clear here. You think that the ne...

2007-11-23T11:45:00.000-06:00

So I want to be clear here. You think that the neurotypical kids in my daughter's school suffer because of her presence in their classes? I want to make sure I really am reading that correctly. I'd also love to know how it is that you figure that, especially since she is doing work at their level, not the other way around.

I really am suspending my personal opinion of you and what you've been saying here for the moment because I want to understand how you have come to that conclusion.

I never said public schools aren't for the public,...

2007-11-23T11:26:00.000-06:00

I never said public schools aren't for the public, and I thank God I was born and still am healthy, I will be praying that my future children are healthy. If they are not, I certainly wouldn't want them to fall through the cracks either. But that doesn't mean that I want every other kid in my childs school to suffer because of mine. I want specialists to help my kid advance as far as he can, not generalists forced to adapt.

For a selfish perspective (which seems to be the modus operendi here(someone want to correct my spelling?)I want the other kids to learn and study hard and get the support of their teachers too, because if they turn out undereducated, it will hurt the economy and there will be fewer resources for special ed in the long run.

I had a student in AK ask why we couldn't have Chemistry. I had to explain that I couldn't trust the students with chemicals and burners. I explained why the social promotion policies put them in a position where it would be dangerous to do it, and pointless as well, as there were too few kids capable of doing the work at grade level. This actually happened at a public meeting in the school. Some parents got mad. I hope they got a little mad at themselves and their relatives for allowing such a situation to develop. Social Promotion and mainstreaming are the two biggest culprits.

And I'll be right behind you on those barricades. ...

2007-11-21T21:17:00.000-06:00

And I'll be right behind you on those barricades. If there's a ramp, that is. An accessible revolution - wouldn't that be nice?

What morons like that don't realize is that their perfect little kids (as well as themselves) can become imperfect at the drop of a hat - for me, it was rheumatoid arthritis when I was 4, for others, it's an accident that can impair the body or the mind and I'm pretty sure they'd change their minds in a hurry if that happened. It's the supreme arrogance of the healthy and ablebodied to assume that the "abnormal" have nothing to contribute. It's beyond offensive and I am left sputtering in rage.

Public school is for the public. We are the public, too.

Yikes, let's not feed the trolls. Especially the a...

2007-11-21T08:53:00.000-06:00

Yikes, let's not feed the trolls. Especially the anti-Semitic ones.

Cleaning up and first aid are two different things...

2007-11-20T17:00:00.000-06:00

Cleaning up and first aid are two different things. If a kid whacks off a finger, I want to stabilize him and not loose him to blood-loss induced trauma for the time it takes to have him evacuated to a proper hospital.

And If I am responsible for the classroom, I need to know who has a disease that can change my life. This privacy crap all came about because we are so afraid of outing gays with AIDS, not because there was a problem with school officials and teachers knowing who is a risk.

Mr. Smarterthanyou -

Teachers are now give...

2007-11-20T14:46:00.000-06:00

Mr. Smarterthanyou -

Teachers are now given training in how to deal with bloodborne pathogens safely, so no, you would not be putting yourself at risk cleaning up after an injured student with a bloodborne infection if you paid attention in training. You would probably also be encouraged to get vaccinated against Hepatitis A & B, which are the strains you're most likely to run into.

And if a student tests positive for TB and is contagious, they will be removed from the school and anyone they have come into contact with will be tested. That is standard procedure everywhere in this country as far as I am aware. No, you won't be told who the student was (do you want your private health information shared with everyone in the school?), but it won't matter, because the student won't return to the classroom until he/she is no longer contagious.

-Elizabeth, who works in Public Health

Andrea, Jr Kindergarden?

Don't you mean tax...

2007-11-20T11:12:00.000-06:00

Andrea, Jr Kindergarden?

Don't you mean taxpayer subsidized daycare? Why don't you cough up the money for the footstool?

The lowest common denominator means you look at th...

2007-11-20T11:10:00.000-06:00

The lowest common denominator means you look at the kids that you are forced to put into one class, and you don't teach more than what the slowest kid can learn. With 15-30 kids in a class, it is impossible to have 5-6 lesson plans per class for the different skill levels present, while providing support to all those subgroups as they need it. That is the state of Special Ed in Alaska, which is where I taught.

Also, the only thing I trust less than a lawyer is an anonymous one. I can however repeat what I was told by my principal, which was confirmed as being technically correct by the VERY experienced Special Ed teacher.

To top it off, thanks to lawyers, if any of my kids had TB or Hepatitis or AIDS, it was illegal for the school to tell me. Thus if a kid did whack off a finger, and I were to respond, I would be putting myself at risk.

Of course they Lawyer's answer to this is get rid of shop classes for all students because of some retarded or otherwise disable kids who have selfish parents and access to lawyers. Punish everyone because some sleazebag lawyers are hiding behind every bush.

Quite frankly if we lined up all the lawyers and shot them, the next day our cost of living would drop by 80% and the quality of special education would skyrocket. I never met a teacher who wasn't disgusted by how legal risk prevented them from doing the best for the kids. Not one.

Wow. Trolls and everything.

Well said, Rob....

2007-11-20T10:09:00.000-06:00

Wow. Trolls and everything.

Well said, Rob. I'm just beginning to watch my daughter in the education system, and it's odd. Three years she's been in daycare and the educators just took as a given that she would need footstools and whatever to help her participate fully. Now she's in junior kindergarten and I'm fighting with her teacher to get her a $5 footstool so she can reach the table and colour with her friends.

Meanwhile, my little special needs kid is the most popular kid in her class. I don't think any of them would be happy if we segregated her--probably with the other short ones. (Can't have them dwarfs thinking they're just as good as everybody else, you know.)

What's wrong with including the "lowest common den...

2007-11-20T01:20:00.000-06:00

What's wrong with including the "lowest common denominator"? How we as a society treat those who most need our help speaks volume for who we are as a people. If certain members of our population need more services, we should do our best to get them what they need.

As others have pointed out more eloquently, the costs of special education of children when they have the best chance to make real progress far outweigh the costs to society of turning them out of school with no skills, no education, and no real future.

Also, speaking as an attorney, the troll comment that "as a teacher", you had to let students use power tools that they could not handle and would put them in risk of severe physical injury is total BS. The costs of a special education suit for "discrimination" are nothing compared to the liability of the school for letting an unqualified child use a tool that can cause bodily harm. Most schools are so litigation averse that they would remove the saw, rather than leave the chance of the child being injured with it.

Nicely said, Rob. You really are becoming a fancy...

2007-11-19T22:11:00.000-06:00

Nicely said, Rob. You really are becoming a fancypants authorly type!

The lowest common denominator?

Jesus H. T-F...

2007-11-19T14:18:00.000-06:00

The lowest common denominator?

Jesus H. T-F Christ.

Good job spell checking Matt. Glad to see that you...

2007-11-19T14:11:00.000-06:00

Good job spell checking Matt. Glad to see that you have a use.

Spending 30% of your time and money on 2% of the p...

2007-11-19T14:10:00.000-06:00

Spending 30% of your time and money on 2% of the population is not great, but hey, we are a Christian, charitable nation. Oh wait, we are a nation full of atheists, Jews and others who object to us being a Christian, charitable nation. They want us to be a socialist nation instead, where realizing the socialist goals is more important than achievement. Bringing us all down to the lowest common denominator is the goal.

I have worked with GREAT special ed teachers who were hamstrung by rules that took kids out of their hands. If they could take 3 years advancing that kid 1 year in reading level, they would do it and not complain. But instead these kids are thrown into regular ed classes where they are frustrated, their teachers are frustrated, and their classmates suffer from "dumbed-down" curricula. 3 years later, they still cannot read any better, but are frustrated and angry.

I taught a carpentry class at a school where anything past basic first aid required a life-flight plane (not chopper)to get to a small hospital. The nearest real city was 650 miles away by small plane. I was told that If the parent complained about their child being excluded, I would have to let this 15 year old, 70 IQ klutzy kid operate table saws. Please tell me how "inclusion" laws make sense in this kind of case?

Of course, teeny tiny liberal minds prefer to go after me with silly insults rather than face my arguments.

I attended elementary school in the 80's and higsc...

2007-11-19T11:37:00.000-06:00

I attended elementary school in the 80's and higschool in the 90's, so I think I may be younger than you.
I also attended both private and public school (and I'm Canadian).

So, here's the thing. In my small private school, students with disabilities ranging from learning diabilities to much more severe disabilities were integrated. There was a special ed teacher who would teach them separately in various subjects (i.e math). The rest of the time we were together as a group.
I was one of the "faster" students (for lack of a better word) and so I was often partnered with one girl in particular. I would help with whatever we were working on. Because I was very social I was also encouraged to invite her to play at recess.
Some days, when I was growing up this annoyed me. Some days my best friend annoyed me. The response was that friends are friends and you accept each other.
While I could read circles around her, she could draw circles around me.
We made up for each other. We became friends.
When I switched to public school it was much more segregated. I was in classes with other A students. Anyone with a disability was completely separated. We never sat together at lunch. Why would we? We were forced into separate social groups.
I remember thinking it was weird then. And I still think it is weird. Yes, in some cases it makes sense to be in separate classes. But at other times not so much.
I'm rambling, but my point is that inclusion is taught. And you can't learn the fun side of other kids if you are never around them.

Bravo Rob.

We paid town taxes for education...

2007-11-19T08:54:00.000-06:00

Bravo Rob.

We paid town taxes for education while we homeschooled our children for 4 years.

And now we're starting to take advantage of the taxes we continue to pay.

We do this because everyone benefits when all our children get better education.

If I ever complain that some of this money is being spent for 'special needs' children, or that I no longer have children in the school system, someone please take a 2x4 and slap me hard.

I am 39 and went to one of the first elementary sc...

2007-11-18T19:45:00.000-06:00

I am 39 and went to one of the first elementary schools in the country that actively mainstreamed children with disabilities (physical/mental/emotional, etc.) They are still doing it. (Creel Elementary in Melbourne, FL).

The thing that I think was done really well there was that there was a permanent classroom for the kids who could not be mainstreamed fulltime - most of the kids moved back and forth between that classroom and the maintstream ones throughout the day. They might go back for some kind of physical therapy or for lunch if they needed assistance, or whatever. Some only came into our classroom for certain segments - maybe reading or math but if they needed help with writing they went back. It was so....seamless. They came and went on a schedule that the teachers must all have been aware of but did not negatively affect any of the kids. (And a lot of times it was a "normal" kid who escorted them - which allowed our friendships to blossom.)

I think it worked so well because you do have to look at the group as a whole - the poster who mentioned a kid with a second grade reading level in a high school class does have a point. It wasn't helping anyone - not any of those kids - to have this poor kid in their struggling. (It especially was not helping him.) So he needed to be getting extra help in reading and maybe be mainstreamed instead in another course or attend the science course with a tutor who could assist him. Would it cost money? Well yes - but that kid was just going to cost money when he graduated and could not function successfully in mainstream society too. Better to spend money in school where kids have the luxury of time and patience on behalf of gifted teachers and give them a jumpstart on the future.

One interesting thing about my elementary school - by the time we left, seeing a disabled kid pretty much meant nothing to us; they were just classmates by then. I've often wondered what happened to many of them (most were younger than me as the program was in its infancy when I was in the upper grades). There were no disabled (or "non neural typical") kids in my jr high and high school. They disappeared.

How sad is that?

Colleen

I'm 43, and went to a "mixed" elementary school. T...

2007-11-18T11:01:00.000-06:00

I'm 43, and went to a "mixed" elementary school. There were two classes full of 6th graders. One was the "normal" kids. The other was mixed between gifted and special needs. I don't think I ever thought much about it. I was in the gifted class and whenever we were done with our work early it was expected (not required) that we would go help the special needs kids with their work. We all pretty much ended up with particular friends. There was one kid with Down's Syndrome and I sat with him every day because we just understood each other. I don't remember a single problem in that classroom. Looking forward to meeting you when we get to Plano, even if I have to stalk you at one of your fancy pants book talks. ;) We closed on the house and move at the beginning of Dec.